A Southern Fiefdoms allegiance

[werewolf]

ok, this has been a topic on #palantir for a while now, how about a southern fiefdoms allegiance? you make think of this as "TLA did it so why don't we" well, just because tla does something that doesn't mean we cant, and it was a good idea :) but on tla it got slaughtered, whether that was because of the people battling in that allegiance or because of the models it had to choose from, it maybe interesting to see how well it does here :)

The forces of Gondor were definitely not all together in the War of the Ring, only just before the pellenor did they come together. The way the campaign plays at the moment, troops from all over Gondor are currently marching against Mordor, similarly, Warriors of Minas Tirith are most likely defending areas all across the southern fiefdoms. looks a bit strange to me :S

and here's what you're main argument would be "well, if you want to include a fiefdoms army just don't put WoMT in it". Trouble is that people can do this, but there are some Gondorians who would rather not use their precious fiefdom armies for the benefit of a mad overlord in faraway Minas Tirith ;)

like i said, Gondor wasn't united under one banner until the Siege of Minas Tirith. As our campaign is set just before the Fellowship of the Ring, it would make more sense for their to be separate Gondors.

Yes they are all Provinces of Gondor but Gondor itself in the late Third Age was like a loose grouping of regions. The South was governed by the Citadel of Dol Amroth. Even though overall rule was with the Steward in Minas Tirith, the Steward only really dealt with concerns to the East aka Mordor. The Provinces governed their own affairs up until the Pelennor and the Return of the King

Gondor in fact has a permanent army, It is in Minas Tirith and Osgiliath, the fiefs are more of a present based force other then Dol Amroth and you can be sure should they fight they would do it under the swan banner not the White tree.

so what d'ya think?

[LordBoromir]

The way the campaign plays at the moment, troops from all over Gondor are currently marching against Mordor, similarly, Warriors of Minas Tirith are most likely defending areas all across the southern fiefdoms. looks a bit strange to me :S

Well actually, as the BotPF supplement will show, WoMT were all over Gondor at the time of the War of the Ring. They were at the Harnen, then in Harmindon, Glamgorath and deep into Harad. Why would they all be stuck in Gondor? :?



The forces of Gondor were definitely not all together in the War of the Ring, only just before the pellenor did they come together.

They were definately together - until the Siege of Minas Tiritth which I believe you are referring to, was the only actual time they had to come together. I guess if that were a valid exuse, somebody could say "Edoras never joined with the Eastfold until Helms Deep! Let's split Rohan into 2 allegiances!"

There's also the point, that it's just plain unneccesary. What will we achieve by splitting Gondor in two? As I said, it surely won't be more themed. Also, Gondor has an uber army list at the moment. By splitting them into two, we will be left with 2 uber armies, as they will both have very similar lists.

As you said TLA did try this one out. And look what happened - nobody wanted to join them. Right now, they have 2 or 3 active members. Do we at Palantir really want to make that same mistake, I think not.

Sorry WereWolf, it's a good thougt, but completely unneccesary. Why not split Rohan into 2 Folds? Why not have North and South Mirkwood? Why not have Barad Dur and Minas Morgul? Why not have Far Harad and Near Harad?

I's just overburn. And does anyone want to have an army focused on SkoDA? ;)

[werewolf]

Well actually, as the BotPF supplement will show, WoMT were all over Gondor at the time of the War of the Ring. They were at the Harnen, then in Harmindon, Glamgorath and deep into Harad. Why would they all be stuck in Gondor?

Well, as BoTPF couldn't use any of the fiefdom troops from WD 295 their only choice was skoda and womt, i see no reason why we should have to limit ourselves in this way?

They were definately together - until the Siege of Minas Tiritth which I believe you are referring to, was the only actual time they had to come together. I guess if that were a valid exuse, somebody could say "Edoras never joined with the Eastfold until Helms Deep! Let's split Rohan into 2 allegiances!"

There's also the point, that it's just plain unneccesary. What will we achieve by splitting Gondor in two? As I said, it surely won't be more themed. Also, Gondor has an uber army list at the moment. By splitting them into two, we will be left with 2 uber armies, as they will both have very similar lists.


well, as i don't see any any warriors of the eastfold anywhere? so that rules out the possibility of that happening ;) (before you start, sf has both skoda and men at arms of dol amroth :P)

and as you said, gondor already has an uber army list, but if this doesn't happen then it will be able to have sf troops as well as everything else, making it more powerful than ever, so what's worse? 2 moderately good allegiances or 1 almighty, rule everything one?


As you said TLA did try this one out. And look what happened - nobody wanted to join them. Right now, they have 2 or 3 active members. Do we at Palantir really want to make that same mistake, I think not.

the only reason that happened to sf on tla was because of who joined it, not because of their army list etc. i was once in there, and their forum was total chaos, i see no reason why anybody here at palantir would behave the same way they did :)

Sorry WereWolf, it's a good thougt, but completely unneccesary. Why not split Rohan into 2 Folds? Why not have North and South Mirkwood? Why not have Barad Dur and Minas Morgul? Why not have Far Harad and Near Harad?

well, the only thing stopping us from that is lack of troops, while sf has more than enough to warrant its own allegiance want, and if you don't belive me then look at this :


Prince Imrahil
Corinir of Pelargir ( UK WD 295 )
Angbor of Lamedon ( UK WD 295 )
Captain of Men
Knights of Dol Amroth
Men-at-Arms of Dol Amroth ( UK WD 295 )
Clansmen of Lamedon ( UK WD 295 )
Hunters of Anfalas ( UK WD 295 )
Warriors of Pinnath Gelin ( UK WD 295 )
Axemen of Lossarnach ( UK WD 295 )
Warriors of Ringlo Vale ( UK WD 295 )
Wardens of Pelargir ( UK WD 295 )
Bowmen of Morthond ( UK WD 295 )

then compare it to another allegiance lets say....rohan

Theoden, King of the Rohirrim
Eomer
Eowyn
Gamling
Captains of men
Rohan Royal Guard
Riders of Rohan
Warriors of Rohan

so as far as i can tell, amount of units defiantly isn't a problem, and do you you really want to see this as an army list?

Denethor, Steward of Gondor
Boromir
Faramir
Prince Imrahil
Beregond
Damrod
Corinir of Pelargir ( UK WD 295 )
Angbor of Lamedon ( UK WD 295 )
Captain of Men
Rangers of Gondor
Citadel Guard
Warriors of Minas Tirith
Guard of the Fountain Court
Knights of Minas Tirith
Avenger Bolt Thrower
Gondorian Trebuchet
Knights of Dol Amroth
Men-at-Arms of Dol Amroth ( UK WD 295 )
Clansmen of Lamedon ( UK WD 295 )
Hunters of Anfalas ( UK WD 295 )
Warriors of Pinnath Gelin ( UK WD 295 )
Axemen of Lossarnach ( UK WD 295 )
Warriors of Ringlo Vale ( UK WD 295 )
Wardens of Pelargir ( UK WD 295 )
Bowmen of Morthond ( UK WD 295 )

yeah, i thought not ;)

[Valetar]

perhappes we should have 1 gondor alleganice and no SF but you will be able to choose up to 50% of SF allies in your army. Just an idea. ranther than the TLA limit of 33% and only certain troops.

[LordBoromir]

well, as i don't see any any warriors of the eastfold anywhere?


I don't see any "Warriors of the Southern Fiefdoms" either, unless you are now proposing a Dol Amroth allegiance. Make your mind up, man.

Pasting those army lists (which for some reason are TLA's - stop trying to copy the, Wolf) only shot you in the foot. As you can see, SF have FAR more variety than Rohan for example. They have elven bows, heavy cavalry, F4 troops, C4 troops, 5 point troops, heavy armor, spears, uber heroes and lances. They have NO weakness.

I think Valetar has the right idea here, it seems decent.
[/quote]

[werewolf]

well as tla's army lists include forlong the fat etc. i didnt really go copying and pasting...

and duh. dol amroth is in sf, call it a dol amroth allegiance, or maybe even Dor-in-Ernil etc. it doesnt have to be called southern fiedfdoms ya know ;), and like you said, they have an uber army list, and if it is so good then it shows that on tla it was the people in sf, not the troop options that was their downfall ;) and if their army list is so good, why give it to gondor?

[LordBoromir]

dol amroth is part of sf, call it a dol amroth allegiance

Wolf, Dol Amroth is a fortress! It isn't a huge land, it's just an area in Western Belfalas. It would be like having an allegiance called Helms Deep or Barad Dur...

[Krahl]

As I've said before, I don't want to see whole lists or articles ripped from other sites (definite no-no!) There are plenty of resources available that such a thing isn't necessary. That being said, lists of GW released miniatures and additions via other sources such as White Dwarf do not truly belong to any site (not even TLA.. shock!) If anyone, they belong to Games Workshop (might toss Tolkien's estate in there too) ;)

I know you were just watching out for a positive reason because of what's been said before LB, thanks for keeping an eye open. :)

Krahl

[Elvenknight009]

Sorry, I'm a no. We don't have enough members to populate all these alliegances.

[Draugluin]

thats a good point Elvenknight, especialy not active and contributing members

I am also a no, even though they may have different armies it is still Gondor
I'm also against harad alliegence

[Krahl]

thats a good point Elvenknight, especialy not active and contributing members

I am also a no, even though they may have different armies it is still Gondor
I'm also against harad alliegence

We have enough members, just not enough members that are active in this area. I would expect that to change dramatically once the actual battle/campaign system are live. That being the case, finding out what the user base really wants is vital at this stage.

Draugluin, I'm interested in your thoughts about why Harad shouldn't be allowed an allegiance? Perhaps time to start another thread, as this is the SF poll thread. :)

Krahl

[Draugluin]

We have enough members, just not enough members that are active in this area. I would expect that to change dramatically once the actual battle/campaign system are live.

I'm sure it would atract more but they would have to do stuff within the community to get build points, so hard to tell how many would do that

about harad, it depends on what the battle thing is like
if its a map and moving armies type thing then i think it would be very cut off and couldnt be conquered as such. if the battle thing doesnt use a map then i guess its alrite, aslong as it doesn't steal members from mordor!

[Krahl]

We have enough members, just not enough members that are active in this area. I would expect that to change dramatically once the actual battle/campaign system are live.

I'm sure it would atract more but they would have to do stuff within the community to get build points, so hard to tell how many would do that

about harad, it depends on what the battle thing is like
if its a map and moving armies type thing then i think it would be very cut off and couldnt be conquered as such. if the battle thing doesnt use a map then i guess its alrite, aslong as it doesn't steal members from mordor!

Have to disagree with you about the users not being more active in the community. I totally anticipate a surge of activity once it's online. However, with the new system build points aren't as vital as they were in the beginning. A number of changes have occured as we've begun nailing down hard facts about the system. Build Points will still be a factor, don't get me wrong, but they've reduced in importance in the campaign facet of the site.

I also disagree (wow, wanna start a fight?) about Harad being cut off due to there being a map. I do see your point about it but it just makes Southern Gondor all that more important for Good to keep alive. It could really make for some great offensive strategems from Good, while Evil would be forced to decide where/how to spread their Harad armies.

I personally can't wait to get the system online and underway.. it's really exciting just thinking about it. I'll try to post some new, updated information sometime very soon concerning the current direction and progress.

Krahl

[Draugluin]

I personally can't wait to get the system online and underway.. it's really exciting just thinking about it. I'll try to post some new, updated information sometime very soon concerning the current direction and progress.

that would be realy cool, maybe if i knew what you knew i would agree with you

theres always someone to disagree with me on this site :roll:

one final point though, with harad alliegence and possible southern feifs alliegence, where will it end? will we see easterling alliegnece? a woses alliegence? Dale alliegence? eagle alliegence? ...actualy an eagle alliegence would be pretty cool :wink:

[Krahl]

I personally can't wait to get the system online and underway.. it's really exciting just thinking about it. I'll try to post some new, updated information sometime very soon concerning the current direction and progress.

that would be realy cool, maybe if i knew what you knew i would agree with you

theres always someone to disagree with me on this site :roll:

one final point though, with harad alliegence and possible southern feifs alliegence, where will it end? will we see easterling alliegnece? a woses alliegence? Dale alliegence? eagle alliegence? ...actualy an eagle alliegence would be pretty cool :wink:

LOL

Well, Harad is set apart from Woses, Dale and Eagles I think in that they're represented in force within the LOTR books, the movies and GW's game system. I can see this as an argument against Southern Fiefdoms though - as they're not really set apart from the main forces of Gondor in any overwhelmingly distinct fashion.

On the other hand, you may be right that those others could indeed petition for acceptance as an allegiance. Let me ask this... if there were a "Battle of Five Armies" campaign (aside from the main War of The Ring) would you not think those should be represented with their own allegiances?

I'm not saying that will happen but give it some thought. ;)


As for updated information regarding the campaign/battle system... it's in the works, I'll hopefully have an update before too long. Keep an eye open for it. :)

Krahl

[werewolf]

well, i actually like the sound of a dale and eagle allegiance, as lack of models aint a problem due to the campaign system, i recon you could have quite a bit of fun with it :) "eagle scouts" "eagle leaders" etc. sounds like a good idea to me ;)

[Lord Of Fangorn]

You could have 'half' allegiances, so they aren't full allegiances, have few people and only are used at certain times. E.g. Fangorn, eagles, etc...

[LOTR_RULEZ]

Although this thread is old, I will continue with where this discussion was going:

Eagle allegiance: Big no! They arent exactly creatures that try and conquer provinces. Allies to other armies at best.

Dale allegiance: To tell you the truth, I'm not too sure on this one. Would need to see how they stand out really

Rhun allegiance: Definite YES! They are just as much an allegiance in ME as Harad are, more importantly Rhun I think looks more unified then the many tribes of Harad, which would probably be more reason to them being an allegiance over Harad. A sub-allegiance to assist the allegiance of Rhun could be Khand. I think a look into the Age of the King Supplement is in order (yes I know u hate taking things from elsewhere, but I really do think its at least worth some consideration!)

Southern Fiefdom allegiance: Again still not sure. I have seen the affects of one on TLA and it really didn't add a whole lot. I propose, yet again, this become in a similar way to a sub-allegiance controlled by Gondor, but then have a few chances for a few members to have a 100% South Fiefdoms army perhaps?

Woses allegiance: I would say a definite no! They arent large enough for a whole allegiance to really have, so more of an ally like how the eagles work.


Just some of my ideas. Btw I didnt vote to the poll because I'm undecided at the moment.

[Carnage]

Althought this is very old I think that Gondor is the protector of the SF anyway and could be included in your army and the same with Rhun and Harad, Rhun can be used in a Harad army. But apart from that, the others are smaller parts of a larger whole but Rhun and SF are larger parts than the others.

[American Viking]

Sounds good to me!

[pickman]

wait in the campain is it legal to use wd units.:hmph: :hmph:

[lotrchampion]

pickman, PLEASE don't drag up threads that are really 2 years old, despite another user replying to it earlier in the year. Really, this should've been locked, it's too old to have any purpose.

In answer to your question, the army lists are still being developed, you'll find out as and when the system nears completion.

[Krahl]

Good point Bob. Hrm, I thought you could lock threads LotrChamp.

Anyway, this thread is now locked.

Krahl